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Raven85's Posts

Supreme Commander vs C&C - PART 1

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Raven85 said...
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I thought of writing my thoughts about these 2 franchises because of the huge ongoing debate about whether EA has ruined the C&C franchise. The reason i chose to compare this with supcom is because it is one of the games that i have played that roughly matches the tech levels, base building and resource gathering of C&C series.

Way back in early and mid 90s i got into RTSs through westwoo0'ds dune and later got hooked to tiberium dawn and RA titles. Surprisingly i never played or heard about star craft or TA until i got access to internet which was a good 10 years later :(. The early RA and tib dawn games had a special attractiveness to them that i still adore. The units, the voice acting and especially the mission design was so unique and fun. The campaigns used to be quite difficult and long. Also almost all the games had a wide variety of missions which i thoroughly enjoyed. Even now i play RA2 from time to time through the first decade.

Then i was introduced to more eye candy games such as tib sun and ra2. Both games were quite good and fun. I have played the tib sun campaign almost 2 times over and the RA2 campaign countless times.Tib sun was probably due to the lack of other games i played during that time and also a good deal because of my likeness to the tiberium universe. But for RA2, Its mostly for fun and game design. Playing RA2/Yuri's revenge would always put a big smile on my face.

Then came C&C generals and C&C3. Generals is one of those games that people love or hate. Most people shun it as a black sheep in the C&C franchise. But for me it is C&C in its heart and soul. True, it does not have the humor of RA or the dark sci fi universe of Tiberium, but in terms of game play its all C&C. I am yet to play a game that really gives the player a true feeling about the power of weapons they are using. The nuke strike, the carpet bombings, the scud storms , the MOABs to gunships ripping apart tanks all feel quite satisfactory and bad-ass. True, the game could have been better, but still its one of those games that i still play. Also it has a very strong modding community. Its quite ironic that ZH has more mod teams than C&C 3. Some of the mods (Shockwave, ROTR, VGO and Contra to name a few) are simply brilliant and totally badass.

Then came C&C3. I was very excited. I can still remember following up its release and counting fingers till the release date came. The demo was exciting and i played through the GDI campaign in a breeze. Then me and my friends got together and had all day LAN parties to roll out the GDI war machine against Nod and Scrin. I have even played all the the campaigns twice or so. At the time i enjoyed it alot.

Then came the RA3 announcement. I was excited again. It was obvious by this time that EA was cranking out C&C titles on an yearly basis and milking the franchise. RA3 campaign was good but not great For the first time i was a bit disappointed about C&C. I played through all the campaigns played a few lan games and then, it was uninstalled. All while i was playing more ZH than any other RTS. By the time the uprising announcement came, i was not interested. The gameplay was feeling shallow and the mission designs were repetitive or perhaps lacked the depth and imagination of the old titles. RA3's dissapointed only resulted in me playing more ZH and other games. Something somewhere has terribly gone wrong and most people point the finger at EA and the disbanding of Westwood studios. However, we must not forget that Westwood guys later formed Petroglyph studios and came up with some RTS titles that were crappy. I feel C&C nowadays have lost the strategic depth, coolness and more importantly innovativeness. I do not expect C&C titles to be genre changing anymore, its too difficult nowadays but there could have been small improvements, better unit design and balancing all within the characteristics of the C&C universe if developers hav payed more attention and time.

At this point i am supposed to write about supcom and how i came to compare it with C&C. But after all the typing i feel tired and sleepy. I will write the second part later.
Supreme Commander

Supreme Commander (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 20/FEB/07
Command & Conquer: Red Alert

Command & Conquer: Red Alert (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/2D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date:
Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun

Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 01/AUG/99
Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2

Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2 (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/2D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 24/OCT/00
Command & Conquer

Command & Conquer (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/2D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date:
Command & Conquer: Generals

Command & Conquer: Generals (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 12/FEB/03
Command & Conquer: Generals -- Zero Hour

Command & Conquer: Generals -- Zero Hour (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 23/SEP/03
Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars

Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 27/MAR/07
Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3

Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 (PC)

Genre/Style: Strategy/3D Real-Time Strategy
Release Date: 27/OCT/08
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You should give Sins of a Solar Empire a try. As for me, I've always been partial to C&C mainly because it's got a good history of quality.

we just won't discuss the campy live-action acting scenes though.............

As far as the quality goes, yes it has as a series gotten considerably better. graphichally speaking excellent, interface good, recent storylines fair. So yeah, in that department, I can see your argument and agree that since EA bought the franchise and did it's own thing with it, it makes me sweat the future releases of some games I'm looking forward to (Mass Effect 2 mainly).
hmm i have been recommended to Solar Empire by several ppl, but i do not a huge fan of space strategies.

What i see wrong with EA is they are not giving enough time for game C&C development cycles. All their recent titles seem to be rushed and poorly balanced. We still play these games because we are die hard fans of the C&C franchise rather than to their quality.

The problem is with their business plan. I also feel that they don't have a good game designer.
I think it was a shame and mistake they went and canceled Tiberuim, the FPS. that game looked solid from the brief demo shots they gave of it.
I have to agree to some point that with C&C (Tiberium saga) they kept the story going. They have so far not disappointed me on that branch. However with RA, when the second one came out, yes it was fun but it was no longer the same. The first RA was serious and dark. The follow up was funny and introduced weird units. The third was blatantly exaggerated.

And as for the canceled Tiberium FPS, that would have been fun to play. I have Renegade, which was fun to play and immerse yourself in the old C&C world, but it would have been better if we got a glimpse of the later world.
I think tiberium was canceled due to quality issues. It was supposed to have AI bots as squad members for the first time in online play. Maybe that didn't go well. But i think EA is developing a new FPS on the tiberium universe. C&C4 is the last C&C game in tiberium universe but they said there would be other products as well. This was hinted in the first interview that came with the C&C 4 announcement.

I agree with Alazar, C&C3 is ok story wise. But gameplay wise it could have been better. RA3 is not replayable at all. Its quite dissapointing.
I really hope they don't butcher C&C4. As it being the last one in that story I want it to go down with a BANG! Yet sometimes some companies try to hard and can destroy it beyond recovery. So PLEASE I am begging thee!!!
Agreed on all counts. C&C3's story was OK, but the gameplay was flaky. The KW expansion made things worse for gameplay, and tried to recycle the global conquest game style from WH40K:DOW, but filled in some holes in the C&C story between C&C:TS and C&C3.

RA3 is just silly. I was ashamed to have picked that game up. Although it came with a beta invite for "the next C&C game" so we'll see whether that pans out or not. And I *am* interested in what C&C4 looks like and plays like.
I have a feeling that C&C4 would be better in terms of gameplay, but the way they are designing is not C&C. Thats the biggest criticism i have. We don't need DOW2/WIC style games. We already have them. When you have a trademark product, you don't do drastic changes unless the design is flawed. Usually you tweak it and make it a bit better. The bad design and spamming of C&C games of late and the lack of imagination has forced EA to change the game style completely and take out gameplay concepts from other well established genre defining games which is very sad :(.

A C&C game should be like the old C&C games with bases, tiberium harvesting, large tank battles ,commandos and more importantly unique and varying missions and a balanced multiplayer. An in every release they should keep these things an do minor updates and tweaks and make them feel fresh and better. To do that you need imagination and creativity which EA seems to lack.
It feels like they've turned C&C into more of a rusher's game, aiming for fast action while still hanging on to some base-building.

I played the first C&C, oddly enough, on the N64. I guess I never really got into the series because I didn't have a worthy computer at that point. Before C&C my favorite strategy game was Age of Empires II. I got back into C&C with Generals and ZH. I enjoyed them so much that I got into making maps for them, and won EA's Zero Hour map making contest.

Next I tried C&C 3, but it just didn't feel right. RA3 looked pretty much like more of the same, and I'm still iffy about C&C 4. I have since turned to CoH, SupCom, WiC, and DoW2 to satisfy my RTS cravings. I say go all out with little to no base-building with a focus on intense battles, or make it worthwhile for the player to make a base that functions well with traditional resource gathering. I'm still waiting for a sequel to Battlezone II...the unmatched FPS/RTS hybrid.
ah yes...i remember battlezone 2 very well. Its one of the best, i agree :)
Haha. My first C&C game started with the N64, but I never got real interested in them, hence why I haven't played any of them except for the C&C3 demo, which was OK in my opinion.

As with Sins? It's not for everyone. I personally wasn't a fan of it. While its large area of space is super neat, it just felt really really slow and I couldn't really get past the first mission without getting bored.

I remember growing up with AoE I and II (amazing games), Warcraft 2, and also Lords of the Realm 2, which was kinduva smaller version of the Total War games, whereas, it's a turn based Civ-style game up until you go into combat, which then turns to RTS.

I didn't really play many RTS games for the next few years until Rise of Nations came out, which had me hooked for a while, as well as Battle for Middle-Earth 2.

I haven't tried SupCom yet, but yes, CoH, WiC, and DoW2 have me as well :)
DOW2 is really good and a novel concept. I played the campaign twice, but after that it felt very repetitive. My point is that CoH had more replay value than DOW2. But DOW2 is simply a great game. The squad customizations and wargear and the brutal combat make it awesome. Maybe its my taste, but i don't have the urge to play it again and again. Only RTS that i have been playing atleast on a daily or weekly basis is Zero Hour and not because ZH it self is great, but because of some great mods, especially Shockwave and Rise of the Reds.
Guys ever tried any of the Sid Meier's Civilization games? I got to admit I'm hooked on Revolutions.
I haven't. But i've heard about it :). Maybe should give it a try when i get some extra free time.
oh it's great fun. it's hard as hell to get anywhere on Deity level. especially if you're trying for a domination victory. Cultural victories are pretty easy, so are technological victories. Economic Victory can be a little iffy at times.

But the plain and simple fact that they give you so many different ways to win, it's awsome.
I really hated C&C 3, and Red Alert 3 was great, but it was missing something.

I was totally spoiled with Generals, and I don't think I'll ever have as much fun with an RTS as I did with that game.
Yes generals is one of the most enjoyable games. It does not have a deep story or good background setup, but in terms of gameplay its great!!!!
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